Forums » Hold Em Strategy

• Anthony Martino

  

  • 494 posts
   

  November 16, 2009 9:18:32 AM EST

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  Continued from Part II
  
  Full Tilt Poker The TPT Charity for BBOC No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t800/t1600 Blinds + t200 - 7 players - View hand 371217
  The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter
  
  UTG+1: t25402 M = 6.68
  MP: t13797 M = 3.63
  Hero (CO): t25238 M = 6.64
  BTN: t12978 M = 3.42
  SB: t56017 M = 14.74
  BB: t112055 M = 29.49
  UTG: t18851 M = 4.96
  
  Pre Flop: (t3800) Hero is CO with A Q
  1 fold, UTG+1 calls t1600, 1 fold, Hero raises to t4800, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls t3200
  
  Flop: (t13400) Q 8 K (2 players)
  UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t20238 all in, UTG+1 calls t20238
  
  Turn: (t53876) 3 (2 players - 1 is all in)
  
  River: (t53876) 8 (2 players - 1 is all in)
  
  Final Pot: t53876
  UTG+1 shows K J (two pair, Kings and Eights)
  Hero shows A Q (two pair, Queens and Eights)
  UTG+1 wins t53876
  
  
  
  When my opponent limped I was really caught off guard.  I wasn't sure if he was some novice who had no clue that he shouldn't be doing that at this late stage of the game (down to two tables with blinds so high) or if he was slowplaying a monster.
  
  I leaned towards him likely being a novice, limping with a small pocket pair or perhaps an AT s00ted! type holding.  But I was concerned that if I open-shoved I still had two very large stacks behind me left to act, plus Villian could be slowplaying a monster and hoping someone messes up.
  
  So I opted for just a 3x BB raise to hopefully take it down preflop, and not expose my entire stack if there was trouble waiting for me.
  
  When Villian cold-called and we saw the flop, I was only worried about him having pocket 8's, or perhaps slowplayed AA or KK.  But for the most part I felt like he was in there with something like AT, AJ or a small pair, and the pot was large enough in relation to our stacks that I didn't want to give him a free card, so I shoved.
  
  Looking back at this hand I can obviously fault my opponent for limp-calling with KJ offsuit at this stage of the game, that's just an awful play that will cost him tons of chips in the long run.
  
  But I'm not without fault either.  I agree with others who posted that I should be shoving preflop in this spot, due to the M of my stack.  Was pretty disappointing to just miss the final table here.  
  
• Suzan Baroni

  

  • 2 posts
   

  November 16, 2009 10:59:38 AM EST

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  I don't know AJ, I don't see the necessity for the shove with this hand. A couple of people on the earlier thread even recommended checking the flop. Although, a bet would have given you more information about his hand. A call or re-raise would have told you he had a hand and you could have made a better decision once the turn came out.
  
  As far as his call PF. Why not? He was just trying to see the flop cheaply with unsuited paint and your raise was big enough to tell him he was up against something, but worth the gamble if no ace comes out. You were the raiser, his check on the flop was to see what you would do. Don't know if I would think my KJ was good once you went all-in, but he obviously did.
  
  Like I said, I just don't get why the all-in was a forgone conclusion at any time in this hand. But, that's just me.......
• Anthony Martino

  

  • 494 posts
   

  November 16, 2009 11:21:29 AM EST

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  You're right Suzan, I agree I made a number of mistakes in this hand that just compounded the situation that cost me my whole stack.
  
  But to call attention to my opponents mistake. The blinds are now 800/1600 with an ante of 200. There's two tables left and most players have relatively small stacks compared to the blinds.
  
  KJ is a questionable hand to be playing from early position for a limp when the blinds are 15/30. Now that they're even larger in relation to your stack size, you really can't be limping here.
  
  Actually, you shouldn't be limping ANY hand 7-handed with the blinds and stack sizes as they are. If you are going to play a hand, you should be coming in for a raise. No one is deep-stacked enough for it to make any sense as far as implied odds are concerned, for you to limp KJ or pocket 6's or whatever.
• Tony Greaves

  

  • 2 posts
   

  November 16, 2009 12:08:11 PM EST

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  A better than average player will limp w/ AA lest than 10% generally ?
  
  So you are playing 7 handed , but K J is a "majority play" hand in this spot , "he" your opponent know he will to play a small pot with it. And this all "pre-flooop" . Right ?
  
  
• Tony Greaves

  

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  November 16, 2009 12:11:35 PM EST

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  I think it was allright but just that , I would never be criticizing BUT DON'T beat yourself up .. Crap like this. Happens in this game.
• Suzan Baroni

  

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  November 16, 2009 12:38:08 PM EST

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  Ok, AJ, I see your point about not limping at this stage. And I agree that KJ is iffy from early position at any time. I was just trying to justify that guys play.
  
  (And I hope you know I was not criticizing you at all.)
• Rene Castillo

  
   

  November 16, 2009 12:43:16 PM EST

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  Only thing I can say you could have different would be to shove preflop. As played, hes an idiot for limping KJ at this part of the tourney with his stack. I think you just got unlucky and yeah better luck next time. If he called shove preflop with that hand then i go broke too.
• Anthony Martino

  

  • 494 posts
   

  November 16, 2009 1:00:23 PM EST

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  No worries Suzan, I deserve to be criticized for misplaying my hand
• Harley Jones

  
   

  November 16, 2009 1:26:06 PM EST

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  The way Villain played this hand, I'm sure he limp-calls shoves 8 times in 10 with that hand. You're screwed either way (save for the two times Villain folds, obviously) so a preflop shove is the right play against limps from his player type.
  
  He's obviously not great at folding paint hands before the flop, nor is he great at releasing top-solid. I like raising these early position limps because they're more fish than fishy with my experience, if you catch my drift. They signal to me that a player doesn't know how to play the hand, which equates to either the hand being weak, or the player being a part-time dipshit in addition to his (or her) being an armchair Internet pro.
  
  Raise these plays with these hands more and you'll likely get more folds. Just like your signature says: assume these limps suck at poker until proven otherwise.
• Tony Greaves

  

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  November 16, 2009 1:35:12 PM EST

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  With 15 BB alot 33% of players are going to play KJ ...
  
  If he moved in with it ... And you called same outcome ... There are so many different ways to play AQ. That's why it's the hand so many people disagree about?
• Suzan Baroni

  

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  November 16, 2009 3:03:46 PM EST

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  Yes, that's why 26 people have gone out of WTP final tables with AQ!
• Harley Jones

  
   

  November 16, 2009 3:33:23 PM EST

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  EdsCrew wrote...

  Yes, that's why 26 people have gone out of WTP final tables with AQ!

  
  What's this have to do with anything?
  
  It's pretty simple: a pre-flop shove gets KJo to fold eight times in ten. This is just another story of a misplayed hand. Indemnify your stake in the future by shoving in this spot, if you feel the need to.
  
  
• Matt V

  
   

  November 16, 2009 4:24:59 PM EST

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  WlkrTxsRngr wrote...

  EdsCrew wrote...

  Yes, that's why 26 people have gone out of WTP final tables with AQ!

  
  What's this have to do with anything?
  
  It's pretty simple: a pre-flop shove gets KJo to fold eight times in ten. This is just another story of a misplayed hand. Indemnify your stake in the future by shoving in this spot, if you feel the need to.
  
  

  Theres more than just villian to act preflop.... AQs is indeed a very strong hand 7 handed but we do have 2 guys behind left to act. I have also seen more than my fair share of guys limp huge pockets like that looking for someone to shove on them. I like his raise.... I think it accomplishes most we want it too - he shoves its probably a big pocket and we can decide then, he calls - we can see a flop and react on it knowing hes probably not super strong, he folds we take it down.
  
  A shove has its merits, but we arent a huggggggge fav against KJ and if he is slowplaying a monster we are straight boned. If someone behind calls we are probably in seriously bad shape as well....
  
  Flop I prefer a check, then unimproved he probably leads into us and we have options to save ourselves - beaten but still with some chips. He might have just checked this one down too.... He called a shove with KJo... you easily could have had him beat on that flop but he called anyway, yes this is villian specific but not sure a shove preflop changes anything that happened.
  
  
  
  
• Rusty Shackleford

  
   

  November 16, 2009 4:31:54 PM EST

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  I don't think the fact that villain folds out KJ here justifies going broke to better hands PF holding AQ. He could have played this hand without going broke. He just didn't. in any rate you get virtually no value shoving PF and probably only get looked up as a flip or worse.
• Ken Furem

  

  • 8 posts
   

  November 17, 2009 2:56:30 AM EST

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  anthony wrote...

  No worries Suzan, I deserve to be criticized for misplaying my hand

  no worries AJ, we're all here to critisize you, 
  
  but nice finish in the tourney regardless.
  
  
• Anthony Martino

  

  • 494 posts
   

  November 17, 2009 3:09:21 AM EST

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  What's funny is my opponent told me he thought I had AK (why he'd call preflop or on the flop then is beyond me) :P
• Suzan Baroni

  

  • 2 posts
   

  November 17, 2009 3:53:35 AM EST

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  WlkrTxsRngr wrote...

  EdsCrew wrote...

  Yes, that's why 26 people have gone out of WTP final tables with AQ!

  
  What's this have to do with anything?
  
  
  

  
  I was responding to the comment that AQ is a hand people disagree about. It can be a trouble hand, despite being a strong holding.
  
  Sorry, I should have quoted it in my response. I was not continuing the strategy discussion.
  
• Suzan Baroni

  

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  November 17, 2009 3:54:31 AM EST

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  anthony wrote...

  What's funny is my opponent told me he thought I had AK (why he'd call preflop or on the flop then is beyond me) :P

  
  That's funny! I think I wrote my first blog about that!!
  
  
• Tony Greaves

  

  • 2 posts
   

  November 17, 2009 3:18:26 PM EST

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  No problem ... It quite simply a hand that can be debated on . It's a great hand but so many disagree about it "pre" and "post" flop.
• Michael Santora

  

  • 5 posts
   

  November 17, 2009 10:50:45 PM EST

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  EdsCrew wrote...

  WlkrTxsRngr wrote...

  EdsCrew wrote...

  Yes, that's why 26 people have gone out of WTP final tables with AQ!

  
  What's this have to do with anything?
  
  
  

  
  I was responding to the comment that AQ is a hand people disagree about. It can be a trouble hand, despite being a strong holding.
  
  Sorry, I should have quoted it in my response. I was not continuing the strategy discussion.
  

  
  What is it that Doyle says?  "Never go broke with a hand with a Queen in it."  Not really great strategy to over generalize like that but you can see his point.  So Suzan I got your point about AQ and the WPT eliminations.
• Tony Greaves

  

  • 2 posts
   

  November 17, 2009 11:44:44 PM EST

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  In Rizen and PearlJammer's n Styles pages 53 -55 ... about AQ
  quote " I could make one of several plays with AQ in this spot " the spot being after some has open raised in front of me. The list goes on and on ... there are 13 thousand ways to play this.