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[1000NL] - Is the river a easy shove?

Rusty Shackleford
January 7, 2010 8:30:33 AM EST

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Calvinzorr wrote...

I think if he was turning KK-JJ into a bluff here, he would have bet more on river, his current betsizing looks likes thin value. Or maybe he wants me to think that...

Agreed. I didn't notice it at first, but it appears villain intentionally bet precisely half-pot. And given what you said and the fact that he's sizing this to be callable, it's either a v-bet or a v-bet bluff.

I'm gonna oversimplify this for the sake of making a point. If your shove is successful, you'll make about 500, and if it fails you'll lose about 750 more. So you need a fold 60% of the time to break even. Is villain is ever folding A9 here? I see that being not impossible but far more unlikely than the other 2 hands in the range. That leaves you with 2/3 of the range you can fold him out on, and now you need almost 100% success rate on those 2 hands folding him out to break even. He may be solid, but are you that sure he's willing to lay down those hands here?

As I said, that's oversimplified a bit, but the point is you have to be very sure villain always lays down AK/AQ here to have any value in this play.
Rob Maxwell
January 7, 2010 11:21:19 PM EST

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After reading this thread a little closer. Why does Hero even get involved with a solid player(Villain) after a re-raise while holding A 7? I know it is 4 handed but Villain knows Hero well and his range. I believe I would take a little loss early in the hand than be thwarted on the Turn and make an awwwful play.
Anthony Martino
- 494 posts
January 8, 2010 1:20:28 AM EST

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ribbybruno wrote...
After reading this thread a little closer. Why does Hero even get involved with a solid player(Villain) after a re-raise while holding A 7? I know it is 4 handed but Villain knows Hero well and his range. I believe I would take a little loss early in the hand than be thwarted on the Turn and make an awwwful play.

Villians reraising range can be hands that are weaker than A7 given that this is 4-handed and Calvin is in a "steal" position.
Ken Furem
- 8 posts
January 8, 2010 2:07:22 AM EST

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sixandfour wrote.....

.. I'm gonna oversimplify this for the sake of making a point. If your shove is successful, you'll make about 500, and if it fails you'll lose about 750 more. So you need a fold 60% of the time to break even. .
.

Since they play against each other on a regular basis, it can't be the first time this situation came up. Looks like the quality of the read is the over-riding piece of information.
Shawn Ewer
January 8, 2010 2:09:19 AM EST

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eagerly awaiting outcome of hand
Michael Hughes
January 8, 2010 2:58:23 AM EST

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i'm thinking the 1/2 pot is a vb and and shove here ended poorly for hero. How would you play it if you were the villian and you had j10s for example? reraise in the sb to get rid of a weak A maybe. Cbet the flop when you get your 4 flush, plus you count the remaining 2 10s and any of the 3 jacks as outs. check the turn because your opponent must have an A now and you're beat. you hit your hand on the river, so you vbet him to see if he bites.

just my 2c.
Michael Santora
- 5 posts
January 8, 2010 3:23:49 AM EST

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Calvin really milks his threads for all they're worth. How about the result please?
Dan L.
January 10, 2010 3:44:03 AM EST

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O.k. The results would be nice!
Calvin Jiang
January 10, 2010 2:47:29 PM EST

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I dont see how the results matter but I called and he had AQ
Troy M
- 11 posts
January 10, 2010 4:31:24 PM EST

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ribbybruno wrote...
After reading this thread a little closer. Why does Hero even get involved with a solid player(Villain) after a re-raise while holding A 7?

Because these stakes are much more aggressive than what you're used to. Being a solid player means you have a good, complete game -- one which, despite being more strategically sound, is still exploitable if you know what you're doing and you're picking the right spots. Calvin probably thought this was one of those spots, not only because he can induce a fold from a hand as strong as TPTK on certain boards like this one, but also because showing down in spots like these is good advertisement to keep your opponents guessing when you're value-betting the top of your range later on. However, it's also good for a lot of other spots where your hand is either marginal or nothing at all.
Troy M
- 11 posts
January 10, 2010 4:32:26 PM EST

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Calvinzorr wrote...
I dont see how the results matter but I called and he had AQ

Explain why you call here, 'cause I was thinking fold > shove > call. Shoving folds him out much more often than hero-calling wins you the hand IMO.
Rob Maxwell
January 10, 2010 4:57:32 PM EST

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adventTM wrote...

ribbybruno wrote...
After reading this thread a little closer. Why does Hero even get involved with a solid player(Villain) after a re-raise while holding A 7?

Because these stakes are much more aggressive than what you're used to. Being a solid player means you have a good, complete game -- one which, despite being more strategically sound, is still exploitable if you know what you're doing and you're picking the right spots. Calvin probably thought this was one of those spots, not only because he can induce a fold from a hand as strong as TPTK on certain boards like this one, but also because showing down in spots like these is good advertisement to keep your opponents guessing when you're value-betting the top of your range later on. However, it's also good for a lot of other spots where your hand is either marginal or nothing at all.

That makes sense. I am going to be playing a lot more cash games in the future and want to learn more on this subject. Thanks for the help.
Calvin Jiang
January 10, 2010 8:48:06 PM EST

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adventTM wrote...

Calvinzorr wrote...
I dont see how the results matter but I called and he had AQ

Explain why you call here, 'cause I was thinking fold > shove > call. Shoving folds him out much more often than hero-calling wins you the hand IMO.

It was very late into my sesssion, I was tired. I thought about shoving but realized too much time had aready passed (reverse timer tells ftw) to credibly rep anything, so I mashed the call btn.

I think a call is spew here.
Troy M
- 11 posts
January 11, 2010 2:15:54 AM EST

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Should've shoved anyways to get the metagame going. Chances are he still folds one pair.

(Not that fold < shove now, but, ya know, metagame.)