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Im done~

Jordan Taylor
February 25, 2010 3:26:49 PM EST

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Im done with Online poker for good. Its really a joke that has ruined the quality of play in NLHE in general. Its created a group of jokers who know nothing about starting hand strength or pot odds. Not to mention they sell you on a lie to begin with! There is NO SUCK THING AS A RNG (Random Number Generator) With out a hand shuffle and cut, the computer will draw percentages and play certain numbers. SO stop throwing these sites millions of your dollars that no one walks away with, but the people running them!
Anthony Martino
- 494 posts
February 25, 2010 4:02:12 PM EST

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I quit my job in Sep 2006 to focus on mostly online cash games and did just fine (and I don't own a piece of stars or ftp unfortunately)

But my focus was mostly games like Omaha hi/lo and limit poker, not NL tournaments or cash games.

Saying "no one walks away with any money" is just absurd. Sounds like you need a break from poker. And if/when you return to the online venue, maybe try something new, a different game (I highly recommend low limit Omaha hi/lo full-ring games to help you build a bankroll, just read Super System 2 and you'll be good to go)

And of course, post hands and discuss strategy to help discover leaks in your own game, or to see if everyone feels you did all you could and just got unlucky.

Either way, in poker shit is going to happen live or online. Unless the deck is shuffled at least 7 times in a live setting it's not "random" either.

I've had a shit-ton of bad luck in tournaments in a live setting. I played a $600 Omaha hi/lo tournament at Foxwoods and in the middle levels had a rich dork (he was ranked #4 on the Cardplayer POY leaderboard at the time) limp 2359 from UTG. I had AA3T single suited and raised, another guy had A246 and reraised.

This dork with 2359 should realize his Aces are out and his hand is junk, this isn't level 1 of the tournament, but no, he calls and I cap it and the flop comes 29K with two of my suit. So even though he's flopped bottom two pair, I am still the equity favorite with the nut flush draw and the pair of Aces plus the backdoor straight and low potential.

Instead it brick-bricks and he busts myself and the other guy with bottom two pair, when he shouldn't have been in there anyway.

Fast forward a few years and I'm in another $600 NL tourney during the WPT (same as before, the O8 was WPT event) and I have KQ and raise UTG and get THREE callers.

Flop comes 89J with two spades and one heart and I check and it's checked around. Turn is the T of hearts and now there's two hearts on the board. I bet pot (3,000) and this dork who was playing ANY fucking suited hand shoves for another 4200 (i.e. he has ZERO fucking fold equity) with 67 s00ted (in hearts)

So this retard has the idiot end of the straight on an 89TJ board and the flush draw, once again I'm a favorite and once again they get there on me with the King of hearts completing his flush on the river.

If I win that pot I jump to over 21,000 chips when most people are still on a stack of 6K. Instead it drops me down quite a bit and the same guy picks up Aces when I finally have to make my stand (and he goes on to final table and win $14,000 for 7th place)

So don't tell me it's just online poker man, I run so fucking bad in live poker it's disgusting. I feel like Matusow sometimes.
Rusty Shackleford
February 25, 2010 5:12:15 PM EST

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One thing none of you riggat theorists ever have been able to account for; Why is it that some of us can consistently profit? You're completely off on this. People do walk away with the money. I have, and AJ has, and several other people on this site have as well. None of the money aside from the rake we pay is ever in a site's hands. So where does it go? We can't all lose money and have it go nowhere.

Go track some stats and test some of your theories, and you'll find things are not at all like you think. Even runs that seem to you to be really bad turn out quite normal when you compare the probabilities to the norm. It's our tendency to dwell on particular events that skew our perception. I understand how you feel and how frustrating it is; I've been there before and had some of the same suspicions as you until I did some serious research and found to my amazement that in reality things happen just about the way they mathematically should. If it's too much stress, then it's not the game for you. But putting the blame elsewhere isn't going to make you any better.

A side note on the RNG: I don't know what you're aware of or how you've learned about RNGs, but it would appear you're misguided. It is true that on its own, a computer can not generate a completely universal random number on its own. It relies on infinite or nearly infinite algorythyms stopped at particular random moments (i.e. when the card is called for, in this case) to determine a number, but these are only as random as the complexity of the algorythym itself. Having said that, the algorythyms themselves are very very complex indeed, so that the human brain couldn't possibly discern a pattern. And to further diversify the system, the operation of the RNG is tied in to background noise detectors that affect the flow of the computation cycle, ensuring that no one could crack the system by "decoding" the algorythym and stopping the cycle at the appropriate millisecond. So it's not purely random by the true definition of the word, but then nothing in life is. In fact, it's far more random than the actual acts of either human or machine shuffling of a physical deck, which is a generally uniform pattern affected by irregularities in the cards themselves. But the RNGs are random enough that neither you nor anyone else (including the site itself) can take any advantage of it.
Jordan Taylor
February 25, 2010 5:57:40 PM EST

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Ya, real random. Dude pushes all in on me with J2os and he has me out chipped. Hes in the SB, im in the BB with KK. I call. Flop is A35 rainbow. Turn K. River 4. Real Random Full Tilt! Come on with the BS. Watch the statistics on who gets rewarded when they move all in pre flop. 65% of the time. Its the person that made the first all in move will win with anything!
Jordan Taylor
February 25, 2010 6:00:55 PM EST

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Ahhh man, just watched the same dude shove his over stacked 8-2 os into a dude that was 1/2 his chip stacks AA and he hit the runner runner 88! Come on, get off the teet of these online sites. Run the same statistics in a casino and see how that plays out!
Harley Jones
February 25, 2010 6:22:55 PM EST

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You sound like me when I hit my first big downswing after two tournament wins, when I was playing online in 2005. I cursed the Internet and FTP's poor algorhythms.

Then I grew a pair and a frontal lobe, only to realize that a few problems punched holes in my game larger than the ones in the left side of the Lusitania.

I'll keep this succinct, but you're irreparably foolish if you think your bad luck is really, honestly, truthfully all on the shoulders of persons and factors apart from yourself. What you need to do is take a step back and look at how you're playing, adjust accordingly and soldier forth through the beats, because they won't stop even when you do fix your game. That is, of course, provided you can be mature enough to objectively analyze where you could improve as both a poker player and a person who comes to a poker forum to discuss the game, instead of apophenia-crazed conspiracy theorist whom no one takes seriously.

Kthx? Kthx.
Daniel K
February 25, 2010 10:30:44 PM EST

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Technically, what you are showing as examples jordie ARE random... there is no such thing as a SURE hand, especially preflop. Everyone has outs, and everyone can falter. Improve your game and if you're sick of online go play live then come back and inform us how random it is there.
Deleted Member
February 25, 2010 11:14:35 PM EST

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jordie21 wrote...
Im done with Online poker for good. Its really a joke that has ruined the quality of play in NLHE in general. Its created a group of jokers who know nothing about starting hand strength or pot odds. Not to mention they sell you on a lie to begin with! There is NO SUCK THING AS A RNG (Random Number Generator) With out a hand shuffle and cut, the computer will draw percentages and play certain numbers. SO stop throwing these sites millions of your dollars that no one walks away with, but the people running them!
Glad to see that you are quite informed. A lot of others out there think that it is not rigged.
Anthony Martino
- 494 posts
February 26, 2010 12:10:55 AM EST

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Jordie, you've hand picked a few hands that are outrageous, but not impossible. If you want to claim that online poker is rigged because of these hands, then I counter that LIVE POKER IS RIGGED because of these hands:

1. HOME GAME BOTTOM TWO PAIR VS. TOP SET

In my home game a guy raised with 24 preflop and another barely minraised him with 88. The flop came 248 (lolriggaments!) and all the money went in.

Turn 4
River 4

The guy with bottom two pair against top set was less than 1% to win that hand if I recall correctly.

2. WSOP QUADS VS STRAIGHT FLUSH

3. WSOP JENNIFER HARMAN QUEENS FULL VS STRAIGHT FLUSH

So you keep thinking that online poker is rigged against you. Based on your arguements if you expect me to agree with your belief, then you must also agree with my theory that "live poker is rigged"
Daniel K
February 26, 2010 12:52:32 AM EST

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Let's face it anthony... EVERYTHING IS RIGGED!!

We live in the matrix, which is a computer generated program that creates the equivalent of 23 suited personality programs (otherwise known as The Man) that have the sole purpose of keeping us down.

Don't trust anything. Don't trust yourself.
Dan L.
February 26, 2010 2:10:33 AM EST

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A.J. remember the time i pushed on your AA with A 10 of spades PRE-FLOP? One spade on the flop and then runner runner spade to knock you out of a very big and expensive home game in the first level??? I RIGGED IT!
Rusty Shackleford
February 26, 2010 3:11:48 AM EST

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jordie21 wrote...
Come on, get off the teet of these online sites.

I'm not losing my money. You are. Why should I change? Get over yourself and imagining you're better than you are and fix the holes in your game. We've seen enough just from what you've posted the last two days to know you need a lot of work. And don't give me that crap about you proving a point because:

A.) You didn't,
and
B.) We're poker players too, and we can smell B.S. just the same as you.

jordie21 wrote...
Run the same statistics in a casino and see how that plays out!

And compare it to what? You haven't even got stats on online games to compare them to. All you have is what you think. An untested theory based on what you see. Like going outside and looking at the world and being absolutely sure the world is flat. Anyone can find out the percentages of certain situations. If hands win and lose online as much as
they should, why would you need anything else anyway?
Rusty Shackleford
February 26, 2010 3:15:17 AM EST

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SamAdamsDan wrote...
A.J. remember the time i pushed on your AA with A 10 of spades PRE-FLOP? One spade on the flop and then runner runner spade to knock you out of a very big and expensive home game in the first level??? I RIGGED IT!

LOL my fiancee did that to me last year... except it was two tens on the flop...
Rusty Shackleford
February 26, 2010 3:20:02 AM EST

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NonRiggedPoker wrote...

jordie21 wrote...
Im done with Online poker for good. Its really a joke that has ruined the quality of play in NLHE in general. Its created a group of jokers who know nothing about starting hand strength or pot odds. Not to mention they sell you on a lie to begin with! There is NO SUCK THING AS A RNG (Random Number Generator) With out a hand shuffle and cut, the computer will draw percentages and play certain numbers. SO stop throwing these sites millions of your dollars that no one walks away with, but the people running them!
Glad to see that you are quite informed. A lot of others out there think that it is not rigged.

And since you're once again throwing your competition under the bus, enlighten us with how YOUR site is any different than any other. You're not gonna get people's business by simply calling the kettle black.
Rusty Shackleford
February 26, 2010 3:53:56 AM EST

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jordie21 wrote...
Ya, real random. Dude pushes all in on me with J2os and he has me out chipped. Hes in the SB, im in the BB with KK. I call. Flop is A35 rainbow. Turn K. River 4. Real Random Full Tilt! Come on with the BS. Watch the statistics on who gets rewarded when they move all in pre flop. 65% of the time. Its the person that made the first all in move will win with anything!

KK: 87.635%
J2os: 12.365%

So J2 wins one of 8 times. If it didn't, then it wouldn't be random. 65% of the people that shove win because 65% of people who are shoving have the best hand (or don't get called). Stats are meaningless without context, sir.

On a side note, I just tested your theory. I shoved the first hand of every SNG until I won. It took 14 times. Does that mean it's rigged against me? I mean, it should only take 9, right? Or is it perhaps that the very nature of randomness is that it doesn't follow a pattern at all but instead happens more or less often at different times?

If you can't handle the swings, by all means stop; this isn't the game for you. What you're looking for is checkers or chess; something that doesn't have the element of chance or variables. If you ever want to play poker live or online, though, you need to stop passing the buck for your lack of success and instead work on getting better at it.
Bill Hart
February 26, 2010 3:57:19 AM EST

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I always look at it this way when it comes to online poker and being beat by some crazy hand. If I played my hand correctly and some moron decided to call and beats me oh well. The site didn't send him a message telling him to call my raise with 2 5 offsuit. I've made a few thousand dollars online starting with just $25 playing micro stakes. Things happen live or online in poker sometimes you need to take a break from the game. We all love and hate this game at times, it's the mental part of the game. But the same crazy stuff that happens online happens at live games too and you see them if you play enough live games. I was knocked out of 8 tournaments in a row with pocket kings in live tournaments this past summer. Did that suck? Yes, but I figure I will never go through a bad run like that ever again. Take a break from online or give it up. But poker live or online you are going to run into bad players all the time not knowing how to play and they get lucky beating you. But in the end if you can keep your head you will beat these guys. I love players playing crazy cards because in the end I will get them, if not that session the next. Good luck!
Daniel K
February 26, 2010 5:02:51 AM EST

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sixandfour wrote...

NonRiggedPoker wrote...

jordie21 wrote...
Im done with Online poker for good. Its really a joke that has ruined the quality of play in NLHE in general. Its created a group of jokers who know nothing about starting hand strength or pot odds. Not to mention they sell you on a lie to begin with! There is NO SUCK THING AS A RNG (Random Number Generator) With out a hand shuffle and cut, the computer will draw percentages and play certain numbers. SO stop throwing these sites millions of your dollars that no one walks away with, but the people running them!
Glad to see that you are quite informed. A lot of others out there think that it is not rigged.

And since you're once again throwing your competition under the bus, enlighten us with how YOUR site is any different than any other. You're not gonna get people's business by simply calling the kettle black.

six, calm down on this one. i'm fairly certain this was use of what is known by us americans as... dare i say it... SARCASM..

but yes, you have a right to be annoyed at OP
Rusty Shackleford
February 26, 2010 5:37:33 AM EST

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DJKw418 wrote...

sixandfour wrote...

NonRiggedPoker wrote...

jordie21 wrote...
Im done with Online poker for good. Its really a joke that has ruined the quality of play in NLHE in general. Its created a group of jokers who know nothing about starting hand strength or pot odds. Not to mention they sell you on a lie to begin with! There is NO SUCK THING AS A RNG (Random Number Generator) With out a hand shuffle and cut, the computer will draw percentages and play certain numbers. SO stop throwing these sites millions of your dollars that no one walks away with, but the people running them!
Glad to see that you are quite informed. A lot of others out there think that it is not rigged.

And since you're once again throwing your competition under the bus, enlighten us with how YOUR site is any different than any other. You're not gonna get people's business by simply calling the kettle black.

six, calm down on this one. i'm fairly certain this was use of what is known by us americans as... dare i say it... SARCASM..

but yes, you have a right to be annoyed at OP

I'm willing to bet based on the fact that the guy runs a site called Non-Rigged Poker and has in this forum placed a poll asking if we think sites are being rigged that it is not sarcasm. If I'm wrong, my apologies. But if I'm not, I reeeeeeeeally want to hear why we should patronize a poker room run by a guy who makes completely unsubstantiated accusations against his competition, because everything I've ever seen about Non-Rigged Poker here and elsewhere online has implied just that.
Daniel K
February 26, 2010 6:14:40 AM EST

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Here's a way of advertising....

"Do you feel cheated? Are every set of aces you flop being drawn out on at the river, making you lose your stack and your mind? Do most poker sites feel, and appear to be rigged? Do you want a poker site that isn't rigged? Well sign up at Non-Rigged Poker, where we guarantee our site isn't rigged, and you won't be disappointed!"

cough...
cough...
Rusty Shackleford
February 26, 2010 6:28:37 AM EST

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I understand that, and that is entirely possible. But if you're going to stand on the edge of a knife and push hot buttons to get that business, then you should be prepared for the maelstrom of questions from those who want to know about your insinuations. It's not like I'm giving him an unfair question here; I want to know his stance and what he purports to be the reality. He came here chiming in on the debate, so I want to know what he's trying to say. And depending on the answer, I'd like to know how his RNG (or what he uses in place of it, and that's a big issue) is run so I know whether I can trust it. He can answer this any way he chooses and we can make our own minds up about what we think of him and his business. In effect, I'm giving him a chance to win customers here. This is only a hard question if he's not on the level with us.
Jordan Taylor
February 26, 2010 10:11:40 AM EST

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anthony wrote...
Jordie, you've hand picked a few hands that are outrageous, but not impossible. If you want to claim that online poker is rigged because of these hands, then I counter that LIVE POKER IS RIGGED because of these hands:

1. HOME GAME BOTTOM TWO PAIR VS. TOP SET

In my home game a guy raised with 24 preflop and another barely minraised him with 88. The flop came 248 (lolriggaments!) and all the money went in.

Turn 4
River 4

The guy with bottom two pair against top set was less than 1% to win that hand if I recall correctly.

2. WSOP QUADS VS STRAIGHT FLUSH

3. WSOP JENNIFER HARMAN QUEENS FULL VS STRAIGHT FLUSH

So you keep thinking that online poker is rigged against you. Based on your arguements if you expect me to agree with your belief, then you must also agree with my theory that "live poker is rigged"

Do I deny that live can be rigged too. No I dont. Especially in a home game. Who ever was shufflin the cards could have easily set that up. Heck a casino could rig thier games too if they wanted too. However, I have been playing live poker prior to the "online boom". And frankly my live ROI is way in the positive. I can even count in my mind all the "Crazy beats" I've taken live. The wildest being a live cash at the Bike Casino. Where I 2 from the button and dealt pocket A's. By the time it got to me, thier were 5 limpers and I popped it to 4.5x. Admitted probably not high enough. But ok. So the BB calls and one other limper calls. The others fold. Flop is As 2h Ah. BB bets at a pot of 25$ with 10$ the opponent in the mid folds and I reraise all in for 75$. The BB snap calls and turns over 3h4h. And of course what do you think the river was. 5h. A 1 outer. Now granted thier was no way he knew I had the other 2 A's. But to call pre flop and then post flop he threw over his 34 of H's like it was the nuts. Now prior to the online boom. No one played that way. It was a style made popular by Duurrrrr. Come on. The integrity of the game and style of the play was thrown out when 14 year olds started accessing the online. That above all should be reason they cant have online gaming. Cant keep the kids out!
Jordan Taylor
February 26, 2010 11:47:48 AM EST

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This was real random. Oh wait, make that predictable for FULLTILT!

Im UTG +2. Im dealt 1010 cash game blinds .10/.25. I raise to .85. One caller. Flop is 4s10h4h. Pot is about 2$ I bet 1$ he reraises to 3$ I push in for 14$ left. He snap calls and turns over A2ss. Turn A river A. One other person at the table said they folded an A. Wow, SO RANDOM TILT!
Jordan Taylor
February 26, 2010 12:20:50 PM EST

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SO RANDOM AGAIN! Blinds are 1k/2k. Im in the SB. UTG+2 raises to 6k. I have AQcc. I smooth call and so does the BB. Flop is QhJh9c. I bet 10k. BB calls for all his chips and UTG+2 raises all in. I call. BB turns over 99. UTG+2 turns over AKhh. I turn over AQcc. Turn is As. River 5H. Come on now that any of this is random that we all 3 hit our tops. What a joke!
Jordan Taylor
February 26, 2010 12:36:57 PM EST

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I hope the FBI shuts down these sites!
Jordan Taylor
February 26, 2010 12:42:50 PM EST

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FT of a 3.30ko. Once again I havent lost a hand that I was behind. Everytime I get my money in im atleast 70% ahead. Im in the SB blinds are 2.5k/5k. I wake up with KK I have 75k chips. I raise to 18500 chips with everyone folding prior to me. The BB pops it all in for 40k total and I call. BB turns over 55. I turn over KK. Flop is 6s3h4d. Turn 2c River Ks just to rub it in. So random that both our hands hit once again! Amazing how random those flops are. And how 85% of the time people get it all in preflop no matter what they have. No one seems to miss!