Forums » Hold Em Strategy

• Kashuskay -

  

  • 19 posts
   

  April 25, 2010 6:21:15 AM EDT

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  You are in the top 25 with a stack of 47k.   190 players left and top 170 are in the money.  Buy-in was 26.00 (deepstack of 3k to start).  First place is over 10k.  Blinds are 500/1k 50 ante.
  
  It's folded to you on the button and you raise to 3k with 66 and the BB reraises you to 8k (he has 50k in chips to start the hand).   Two hands ago he had pocket aces and won a huge pot.  Very next hand AK and wins a nice pot which is how he got his 50K stack.  You don't have much information on him other than these hands.
  
  What's your play and why?
  
  
  
  Kash
  
• Ronin1085 .

  

  • 417 posts
   

  April 25, 2010 6:28:26 AM EDT

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  I'd probably first think "oh crap" -- then probably muck or, I guess you could call and pray, it wouldn't cripple you to see a flop. hmmmm I want to see a flop. so flat call -- I wouldn't re-raise with a small pair like that -- not unless I had a great read on the player.
• Troy M

  

  • 11 posts
   

  April 25, 2010 7:17:20 AM EDT

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  Kashuskay wrote...

  It's folded to you on the button and you raise to 3k with 66 and the button reraises you to 8k (he has 50k in chips to start the hand).
  

  Huh?  I'm guessing you're actually in the cutoff, right?
  
  You've got a fairly deep stack, seen him showdown the goods twice in a row, you're OOP with pocket 6's, and won't even have 3 times the pot behind if you call anyways, meaning you won't have a ton of room to turn your hand into a bluff postflop.  Easy fold.  This is a spot where you just have to let the would-be bluffers take it down.
  
• Rusty Shackleford

  
   

  April 25, 2010 8:12:48 AM EDT

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  Yeah, if you can't equitably setmine there's no sense getting involved.  Usually people tend to back off if they've had a few hands in a row, so him raising is very rarely a bluff and often particularly strong.
• Ken Furem

  

  • 8 posts
   

  April 25, 2010 2:16:57 PM EDT

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  adventTM wrote...

  Kashuskay wrote...

  It's folded to you on the button and you raise to 3k with 66 and the button reraises you to 8k (he has 50k in chips to start the hand).
  

  Huh?  I'm guessing you're actually in the cutoff, right?
  
  You've got a fairly deep stack, seen him showdown the goods twice in a row, you're OOP with pocket 6's, and won't even have 3 times the pot behind if you call anyways, meaning you won't have a ton of room to turn your hand into a bluff postflop.  Easy fold.  This is a spot where you just have to let the would-be bluffers take it down.
  

  I think Advent pretty much nailed it, but I have a feeling you're looking for something besides the obvious.
  
• Kashuskay -

  

  • 19 posts
   

  April 27, 2010 3:12:23 AM EDT

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  Sorry guys I mistyped this. The villain is actually in the BB.
  
  Would that change your play?
  
  
  Kash
• Anthony Martino

  

  • 494 posts
   

  April 27, 2010 4:41:59 AM EDT

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  Villian has only shown down solid hands so far that we've seen. We do have position post-flop, and his raise isn't huge. But at best I'd expect we'd be coin-flipping against overs, and potentially dominated.
  
  While you could cold-call and see a flop with position (and possibly take the pot away from him) we could also get ourselves into a spot where we commit a lot more than the 3K we already have put into the pot.
  
  So given stack sizes I lean towards fold > call > raise
  
  Not worried about making the money here, we want first place, so I'm more concerned with preserving our chip position (which is quite healthy) than tangling with someone who's only shown down solid holdings.
  
  Granted, players better than myself will likely see opportunity to increase our stack since we have position post-flop. But given the information presented I personally would lean towards a fold here most of the time.
• Calvin Jiang

  
   

  April 28, 2010 11:40:43 PM EDT

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  AJ, care to explain why you have call > raise?
  
  I see it as a pretty simple
  
  fold >>>>> raise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> call
  
  Not sure if people "setmine" in tournys, but you dont even have close to enough odds to setmine here. And if you think villain is bad and you can outplay him postflop, calling a 3bet with 66 here is pretty bad, most flops will have 2-3 overcards, and your equity would be terrible for like 98% of flops. Obv raising isnt great, but you could take down a decent sized pot preflop, and your equity wouldnt be terrible vs villains calling range.
  
• Daniel K

  
   

  April 29, 2010 3:30:59 AM EDT

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  You have position and ability to fold. He reraised 166.6% your raise, might be a resteal based on his part on the good omens of the AA and AK and now that he has some playing chips doesn't want to get pushed around anymore since he's been playing tight. Tight players sometimes get overly aggressive once they have the ammo...
  
  I'd actually go with a setmine and see what he does. Call here, and see what the board is. If he overbets the pot, which i think he would, you can let it go. I'm gonna put him on suited face cards, no ace.
• Anthony Martino

  

  • 494 posts
   

  April 29, 2010 7:49:30 AM EDT

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  I'm not setmining as much as playing our position against what could be an opponent playing back at us because he thinks we're stealing on the button.
  
  If we feel we can outplay him postflop then it could be a spot to call. The only info we have right now is that Villian has shown down legit hands, which is why I lean towards folding, because at best I think we'll be coin-flipping here. Likewise why I also prefer not to raise, because again, at best we're fllipping, at worst we're dominated if he comes over the top and we overcommit ourselves.
• Tracy Snell

  
   

  April 29, 2010 9:20:56 AM EDT

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  I'm folding almost always. He could be on a steal but you miss and he cbets things are getting expensive. You hit the flop all is very good, you miss he raises what are you doing? I'm folding just not strong enough here. He checks do you raise? Too easy to get committed with a not so hot hand in my book. Then again I'm a total nit.
  
• Calvin Jiang

  
   

  April 29, 2010 12:48:12 PM EDT

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  anthony wrote...

  I'm not setmining as much as playing our position against what could be an opponent playing back at us because he thinks we're stealing on the button.
  
  If we feel we can outplay him postflop then it could be a spot to call. The only info we have right now is that Villian has shown down legit hands, which is why I lean towards folding, because at best I think we'll be coin-flipping here. Likewise why I also prefer not to raise, because again, at best we're fllipping, at worst we're dominated if he comes over the top and we overcommit ourselves.

  
  Thought you wernt intending to setmine. Fwiw I think if we think villain is playing back at us or 3betting light, a shove is wayyyy better than a call.
  
  How do you plan to out play villian when the stack to pot ratio is like 2:1? Any boards will 2 more more overcards will hit his range soo hard. Even if he misses the flop, he still has a lot better equity than you because he can cbet or barell to take you off the hand.
  
  I dont think a shove is great, but I think its hell of a lot better than a call. Best case scenerio isnt flipping, its that we can take down the pot right there, especially if you think villains playing back at us (hence your argument for calling).
  
  Even if we get it in vs a modest range of AJs+, 99+, we still have 39.5% equity, and that plus the fold equity we have, heck I think shoving might even be +EV.
  
  
• Anthony Martino

  

  • 494 posts
   

  April 29, 2010 1:41:52 PM EDT

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  Here's how I'm viewing the situation:
  
  Blinds: 500/1500
  Antes: 50
  Our Stack: 47,000
  Villians Stack: 50,000
  
  We raise the button to 3K and Villian in the BB reraises to 8K total. The pot is now:
  
  3K (our raise) + 500 (antes) + 500 (sb) + 8K (Villian) = 12,000
  
  At this point our stack is 44K and we have to call another 5K for a 12K pot with position. So well over 2:1 on our money. If we call our stack is 39K which is still plenty healthy. We enjoy position post-flop but of course the pot size jumps to 17K and it becomes difficult to manuever if Villian comes out firing.
  
  I agree with you that a Villian could be firing back at us light given our button position. But atm all the info we have is that Villian has shown down very solid hands. Do we really want to commit 47 bb's with pocket 6's against a solid player who if he isn't playing back at us light, has us at best in a coin-flip and at worst an 80/20 dog?
  
  Depending on our history here, images, how comfortable we feel playing post-flop, how often villian is c-betting out of position vs. checking since we have a stack that can cripple him, it may be ok to call here and take the pot away post-flop if we feel there is a good enough chance that villian may check-fold (again, this depends on dynamics that haven't been presented in this particular scenerio, but I'd feel more comfortable taking that line if the dynamics are right, than in commiting a very healthy stack with a small pocket pair.
  
  We're relatively deep in the tourney, but still have a ways to go, so while chip accumulation is important, I feel the risk:reward given the information presented in the OP makes a call > raise, at least with the way I play. But at least we agree that barring any additional info fold is the better option here.
  
  
• Kashuskay -

  

  • 19 posts
   

  April 30, 2010 11:35:02 AM EDT

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  Ok....You decide you are having none of it and decide to reraise the BB from 8k to 20k.
  
  He shoves.
  
  
  Kash
• Troy M

  

  • 11 posts
   

  April 30, 2010 12:49:21 PM EDT

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  Mind = blown
  
  Fold.